How long will the energy transition take? The challenges are underestimated. Energy consumption will continue to expand as emerging economies develop, and as new classes of technologies emerge (not least AI where its inherent power consumption is an order of magnitude more than conventional computing). The switch from fuels that are mainly liquids and gases to hardware-intensive technologies like wind, solar and batteries, requires enormous quantities of materials; the supply chains for which are already stretched. And if the energy transition is to be delayed, what should we be doing to prepare and are there other options than those being chased now? Our guest is Mark Mills, author, investor, policy advisor and senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Mark’s latest book is The Cloud Revolution: How the Convergence of New Technologies will Unleash the Next Economic Boom and a Roaring 2020s.